Interestingly (at least for me) today I was pondering Honda's myriad of systems for their disc brakes. ABS, C-ABS and Linked ABS
I thought the 14 DLX had C-ABS (Combined ABS linking front and rear braking) but now I don't think it does. I did some experimenting and my rear brake does not affect my front brake in any way. This can be demonstrated by popping the bike on the centerstand, getting the front wheel off the ground, spinning the wheel and hitting the rear brake lever. If the brakes were linked, it would stop the front wheel but not with the same gusto that hitting the front brake lever does. So off to the dealer I go in search of answers. Of course they can't tell me much, but pouring over the service manual back in the shop, I noticed bikes with linked ABS have 2 hydraulic lines running to the r/f brake caliper. The DLX only has one, and only one going to the left front brake caliper
Looking at the Honda ad info for the two years/models notice the carefully worded text. (bold italicized and underline is my emphasis)
2013 ABS optional
The CB1100 features front and rear disc brakes, and the thoroughly modern option of Honda’s Combined Anti-lock Brake System. That makes for powerful, sure stops. Because you never know what the open road is going to throw at you.
2014 Deluxe
Honda’s original CB750 introduced disc brakes to motorcycling’s mainstream. The new CB1100 offers triple discs with huge calipers for excellent stopping ability. The CB1100 Deluxe adds ABS for confident stopping in more challenging conditions.
I now think the DLX has ABS but the ABS on each wheel operates independently. The brakes are not linked in any way. Personally I like that.
Did anyone else think the DLX's brakes were linked?
.
This is interesting. My 2012 CBR250R has Combined ABS.
The front caliper has three pistons, whereas the non-ABS bike has two pistons. There is also more pad area on the ABS model. There are two hoses going to the front ABS caliper. One hose is connected to the front lever and operates the outer two pistons. The second hose is connected to the rear pedal through a delay valve and operates the center piston.
Some CBR250R riders who track their bikes in 250-class racing rely 100% on the front lever only for their braking. They report the ABS model being out-braked by the non-ABS models and the Ninja 250s.
Here's the reason, IMO: Honda engineers started with the supposition that for street riding, maximum straightline braking performance occurs with simultaneous use of the front lever and rear pedal. Maximum kinetic energy dissipated as heat on two rotors. Proper front lever technique calls for "brush and bury," that is, "brush" the front brakes to load and set the front forks, then "bury" the lever to squeeze the disk for all it's worth.
With Combined ABS, if the rider (let's presume, newer and less experienced) "grabs a handful of front brake" in a panic...they are not really able to apply the full measure of "bury" force. So in effect they are "brushing" and loading the suspension with front lever. If they also apply rear pedal pressure, then after a delay through the valve, the rear pedal will apply pressure to the center piston of the front caliper. At this point we have the "bury" condition fully in effect. The new rider subsequently stops his/her ride at the maximum rate despite their imperfect braking skills.
It is noteworthy that the current-generations CBR300R with ABS no longer has Combined ABS and the second hose is gone from the front caliper. So Honda has apparently reconsidered their philosophy.
Some people despise Combined ABS. For me personally, it's a matter of understanding the system in place on the bike and using it appropriately. When I need to stop quickly with my Combined ABS, I use front lever and rear pedal. This is something I practice as well. Something I rarely do anymore, but did occasionally when I was learning to ride, is to apply some light rear pedal when I felt I was a little hot going into a corner. With C-ABS, this also gave me light pressure on the front brake (after a brief delay that I would say is 0.25 sec), which keeps the front suspension set correctly and results in safer mid-corner braking while leaned over.
Interesting observations ferret.
The brochure for the Canadian model clearly states that the CB1100 is fitted with linked ABS brakes, but in the owners manual it also clearly states "for full braking effectiveness, operate both the lever and pedal together."
It also says that the ABS will not operate at less than 6 mph (10 kph). You wouldn't think that linked brakes would be limited that way too.
On my bike each caliper has one brake line with an ABS line connected only to the right front disc and the rear disc which is also on the right.
From the shape of the front calipers it's quite obvious that they're both two-piston units.
Umm, I'm a little surprised here Mickey. I was under the distinct impression that my new DLX had combined ABS. Not sure whether I believed that was a good thing or a bad thing as I hadn't / haven't yet "played" with it to see what I thought about it.
But YES - I did believe my 14 DLX was combined ABS . . . . .
This is interesting indeed.
(04-24-2015, 11:03 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: [ -> ]Interestingly (at least for me) today I was pondering Honda's myriad of systems for their disc brakes. ABS, C-ABS and Linked ABS
I thought the 14 DLX had C-ABS (Combined ABS linking front and rear braking) but now I don't think it does. I did some experimenting and my rear brake does not affect my front brake in any way. This can be demonstrated by popping the bike on the centerstand, getting the front wheel off the ground, spinning the wheel and hitting the rear brake lever. If the brakes were linked, it would stop the front wheel but not with the same gusto that hitting the front brake lever does. So off to the dealer I go in search of answers. Of course they can't tell me much, but pouring over the service manual back in the shop, I noticed bikes with linked ABS have 2 hydraulic lines running to the r/f brake caliper. The DLX only has one, and only one going to the left front brake caliper
Looking at the Honda ad info for the two years/models notice the carefully worded text. (bold italicized and underline is my emphasis)
2013 ABS optional
The CB1100 features front and rear disc brakes, and the thoroughly modern option of Honda’s Combined Anti-lock Brake System. That makes for powerful, sure stops. Because you never know what the open road is going to throw at you.
2014 Deluxe
Honda’s original CB750 introduced disc brakes to motorcycling’s mainstream. The new CB1100 offers triple discs with huge calipers for excellent stopping ability. The CB1100 Deluxe adds ABS for confident stopping in more challenging conditions.
I now think the DLX has ABS but the ABS on each wheel operates independently. The brakes are not linked in any way. Personally I like that.
Did anyone else think the DLX's brakes were linked?
.
Before doing the exact research that you have stated, I also thought it was a combined ABS system. I'm sure I was under that impression due to some independent reviews that mentioned the combined ABS being on the '14 DLX. They may have been early reviews that improperly assumed the '14s had the same system as the '13 ABS models. I also did the same "wheel spin" test that you mention and I agree with your conclusion. The 2014 DLX is not a combined ABS system.
(04-24-2015, 08:35 PM)Rocky_imp Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting observations ferret.
The brochure for the Canadian model clearly states that the CB1100 is fitted with linked ABS brakes, but in the owners manual it also clearly states "for full braking effectiveness, operate both the lever and pedal together."
It also says that the ABS will not operate at less than 6 mph (10 kph). You wouldn't think that linked brakes would be limited that way too.
On my bike each caliper has one brake line with an ABS line connected only to the right front disc and the rear disc which is also on the right.
From the shape of the front calipers it's quite obvious that they're both two-piston units.
Yes that is what got me to thinking Rocky. I was reading up on the different systems and one article said if it had a combined system they would be 3 pot calipers. I thought "hmm, I'm sure mine are two pot calipers" and that is what led me to start experimenting with the wheel spinning and hitting the rear brake pedal and then eventually digging for more info.
I don't know if I am (or should be) disappointed in this revelation, but I'm glad that I now know this and I thank you for bringing this up.
Probably like everyone else, I thought I had linked brakes because "the book said so."
I was riding as if I had linked brakes and wasn't having any problem at all since I usually apply both brakes at once anyway.
Oh dear, did Mr. Honda lie to us? Where is a weeping smiley when you need one
For those with a '14 service manual, what does it say?
(04-25-2015, 01:06 AM)Lord Popgun_imp Wrote: [ -> ]For those with a '14 service manual, what does it say?
I browsed it for about 20 minutes, did not find anything definitive in the manual.