Many years ago now, I worked transport administration for a state government in Australia. The road safety people were constantly searching for ways to reduce the road toll—particularly among young people. I recall there was credible research showing a very high rate of accidents in the first 6 months after people had first obtained their license and were able to drive solo. I don't remember now, but I suspect this was focused on car drivers. At the time it made sense to me as there is a decided difference doing something under close supervision and doing it all by yourself for the first time.
I don't know how you'd prove it, but I suspect there is a distinct possibility of people of people bursting out of rider training over-confident about their abilities and falling off. If, however, the earlier research about a higher number of accidents soon after going solo has substance, that may be as much of a factor as the training. That's speculation on my part.
For my part, like Pterodactyl and others, my on-road training was entirely self directed. My license test was responding to a few questions and then riding around the block while the testing officer stood on the side of the road and watched me. I'm sure I would have benefited from some decent training. I say this because a couple of years ago I won a advanced training session in a raffle on a rally one day and was surprised at how much it taught me.
(05-14-2016, 02:20 PM)Pete Erickson_imp Wrote: [ -> ]Jon Oliver did a piece about "scientific studies" on May 8th. After watching it, I don't think I will put too much stock in "studies"
http://www.vox.com/2016/5/9/11638808/joh...ek-tonight
Good on you Pete, you can see the elephant in the room.
Cheers
I truly believe that training does make for better riders. There will always be those riders who think they know better than the others, and have an excess of confidence with or without training. For sure there are some that after doing some courses will believe they are better than they really are, but I think these would overdo things on the street no matter what. I meet with riders like that pretty much every weekend on the road behind my house as it is the rallying point for most motorcycle riders in the area, and there are always some of the hot-heads.
Having participated myself in trying to teach beginners to improve a little bit, what I have found is that it is probably with braking that they have the most problems. The dynamics of a bike, and the force of the front brakes, is all too often misunderstood and underestimated. Just a simply exercise of trying to lock up the front on a parking lot teaches you a lot about this. By having this understanding, a rider can improve their chances of getting out of a difficult situation on the street that would otherwise have led to disaster by panicking.
I did learn riding on my own, and gained a lot of really bad habits over the years. By then participating in several riding courses many years later, I was finally able to correct some of those, and I think become a much better and safer rider. Sure, age and simple life experience has probably led to me also better understanding my limits. But you are never too old to learn.
Very interesting discussion. I took the Basic Rider Course when I started riding about 10 years ago. I found it to be very helpful and it certainly did not fill me with delusions of being a Pedrosa, Hayden or Marquez. I find it hard to imagine the course would do that for anyone. Very basic skills were taught with minimal practice and surface level theory. The impression I walked away with was that I could certainly ride a motorcycle and that I possessed only rudimentary skills. I knew I had (and continue to have) a lot to learn.
There's some logic to the thinking that advanced rider training, in particular, from one of the various racing schools, might result in over-confidence, speeding and unnecessary risk taking on the streets. I've heard some say that after race school training they appreciate that speed is for the track and it lessens their "need" to go recklessly canyon carving, dragging knees and hitting triple digits on public roads. I suspect there's some truth to that though I also suspect that many would find it difficult to resist the temptation to take fun corners at speed when you "know" you have the skills to do so "safely."
Does rider training make you a better rider? I believe it can and usually does. Assuming you put into practice the skills taught, having a professional coach or teacher observe your riding, make corrections, teach new techniques and explain the theory behind why and how it all comes together will result in you becoming a better rider. Of course, that begs the question of how are we defining "better." If we're only talking about riding technique and skills, then advanced rider training would seem to do that more often than not. If we add "judgment," then it seems all bets are off and it becomes more an issue of personality and maturity. I suppose that's the point of the study - training appears to affect rider judgment by instilling over-confidence, increased risk taking and over-estimation of skills.
Thanks for posting this Pterodactyl. Very thought provoking.
Here's the published study referred to by Pterodactyl that has all the details.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...751530097X
I found figure 1 a bit odd. The intervention group (left side) showed only 720 riders of 1232 completing the intervention training. IMHO, they should have only used those individuals (720) that completed the training in the statistical analyses.
The other thing that I found interesting is that approximately 65% of BOTH control and training groups had taken previous formal rider training (Table 2).
It is what it is I guess.
There is little doubt that we all can be better than we are, at whatever we do. There is even less doubt that many new riders do not have the skills necessary to ride a motorcycle safely in heavy traffic.
The question is, what is the most economical way for them to improve?
Over many years, watching new drivers and riders I believe that it is not more or better training, it is the time spent practicing, not moving the machine in traffic, but simply operating the machine. Lots and lots and lots of time. Time that would be simply prohibitively expensive if done under direct supervision of professional instructor.
So my advice to new riders is this:
Get some basic training; it won't hurt. But when you are done with it, you are in no way fit to ride in traffic. Spend at least 50 hours practicing, alone, on an empty parking lot, so that operating the machine becomes a "muscle memory" activity. Then and only then venture into traffic, either with an instructor or alone.
This is completely different from what any novice rider motorcycle training course I know of offers. They all give you just a couple of hours of instructions of operating the machine, and then take the new driver on the road, with an instructor, typically riding with a group of trainees, who all obviously still struggle with just operating the machine and thus learn little or nothing about riding in traffic.
I know of avid riders who keep on subscribing for training sessions, for the simple reason: there is always something to be learned.
I have to say, there are also sessions for advanced riders as well, so I assume every lesson is a different.
And still, it helps keep your riding techniques up there.
Imo, this is a non discussion.
When I took my advanced rider course there were several riders attending that said they had been riding for more than 30 years. One such rider said he takes the course every few years just to be reminded of safe riding practices and how talking about handling dangerous situations can help you stay alert on the road.
I've been riding for 12 years and intend to take the course again this year.
I came back to bikes at age 55 and took the training course, mainly to calm my wife, but when it was over I was very happy I did.
The motorcycling world had changed a lot in 35 years and I learned things I would never have thought of on my own - or learned the hard way.
I can see the young and foolish being over confident, but at my age then I knew what was important in life and rode with caution for a long time until I had confidence in my ability.
It's been a wonderful ride since then
I'm a firm believer in parking lot practice on any new bike. Just to get a feel for it. Church parking lots are best, no traffic at all most week days.
I'm also a firm believer in common sense. If you can't see what is ahead, you need to slow down enough to safely transverse whatever may pop up. Any road surfaces that look like they may be slippery be wary of. Especially at curves, like sand washing down from a rain storm that you can't see until it's too late. So right after a hard rain storm use caution.
Seeing and being seen is of the utmost importance. Night riding is particularly hazardous. Slow down and be extra cautious. After riding a few years I always wondered why on earth motorcyclists wore black, just about the worse color.
I cringe every time I see young guys on sport bikes doing 40-50 miles over the speed limit weaving through traffic. It's only a matter of time before their nice pretty bike gets ugly. Not only that, while young bones heal quickly, when you get in your "senior" years you pay for those breaks again!
It's hard enough to stay safe with all the distracted car drivers out there, eating, texting, etc. Why lessen the odds?