I have about 1,800 miles on a Honda Africa Twin Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) model. A DCT transmission is an automatic transmission of sorts. My understanding is that it has two clutches, one for gears 1,3, and 5 and the other clutch for 2,4, and 6. Shifting from 2nd into 3rd, for example, is the process of release one clutch and engaging the other one. The shifts can be so smooth at times that all I can detect is a drop or rise in engine RPM.
The bike always starts in neutral and once you put it into gear there is no blipping the throttle, or you will look a bit silly at the traffic signal as you lung forward. With the bike in automatic mode you can select from 1 of 4 shifting modes, D-Mode and Sport 1 thru Sport 3. These modes differ in the RPMs at which the bike will up shift or down shift. Down shifting is as smooth as up shifting. You can also put the bike into manual shift mode and use the handle bar mounted paddle shifters. You cannot shift into neutral when the bike is moving but you can manually punch a button and put it into neutral once you are stopped.
The Africa Twin (or CRF1000) has an optional foot shifter. This allows you to use your left foot to shift in the same way the handle-bar mounted paddle shifters work. But there is still no way to shift into neutral unless you are stopped.
The purpose of this post is that I have come to believe that what such bikes as this one really needs is a clutch lever. My big reason for this is that motorbikes in general don’t act like cars and trucks at very low speeds, either stopping or just starting out. Cars will never act the same as ‘we’ motorbike riders only have two wheels. Every riding knows what happens when your speed drops so low that it is hard or impossible to balance the bike. Also how is feels to start out in very slow speeds in stopped traffic or in a parking lot etc.
My assertion is that a DCT motorbike would be far more acceptable and ‘user friendly’ if Honda were to add a shift lever. If the bike is in automatic mode and the shift lever is pulled the bike slips into neutral but stays in automatic mode. Once the shifter lever is released the bike continues as before. The rider should be able to slip the clutch and thereby ease the difficulty of slow starts and stops. On a standard manual transmission bike I find that the ability to slip the clutch a bit comes in very handy from time to time.
Now if the rider squeezes the shift lever and also moves the left-foot shifter up or down then the bike changes into strict manual mode. In my view such a bike could be ridden very similarly to a bike with a conventional transmission. The only difference is that the rider is shifting ‘by’-wire’ or ‘by-computer’ so to speak as opposed to shifting by pulling a physical cable. In my view the shift lever should be made to respond to touch in much the same way as a ‘real’ shift lever.
I am attempting to have my cake and eat it too.
Interesting post, activedirt. There's food for thought in it.
I wonder how the 'neutral button' is set up to work? If you could press it when the bike was moving at say, 50 mph, what would happen if you tried to re-engage the gears? If it defaulted to first it could be interesting. From your description, I wonder if it's the case that, if the bike's in neutral, the transmission will always start in first which means that you wouldn't want a rider going near neutral other than at low speeds and I wonder how much extra technology that would involve.
(10-09-2017, 12:08 PM)activedirt_imp Wrote: [ -> ]I have about 1,800 miles on a Honda Africa Twin Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) model. A DCT transmission is an automatic transmission of sorts. My understanding is that it has two clutches, one for gears 1,3, and 5 and the other clutch for 2,4, and 6. Shifting from 2nd into 3rd, for example, is the process of release one clutch and engaging the other one. The shifts can be so smooth at times that all I can detect is a drop or rise in engine RPM.
The bike always starts in neutral and once you put it into gear there is no blipping the throttle, or you will look a bit silly at the traffic signal as you lung forward. With the bike in automatic mode you can select from 1 of 4 shifting modes, D-Mode and Sport 1 thru Sport 3. These modes differ in the RPMs at which the bike will up shift or down shift. Down shifting is as smooth as up shifting. You can also put the bike into manual shift mode and use the handle bar mounted paddle shifters. You cannot shift into neutral when the bike is moving but you can manually punch a button and put it into neutral once you are stopped.
The Africa Twin (or CRF1000) has an optional foot shifter. This allows you to use your left foot to shift in the same way the handle-bar mounted paddle shifters work. But there is still no way to shift into neutral unless you are stopped.
The purpose of this post is that I have come to believe that what such bikes as this one really needs is a clutch lever. My big reason for this is that motorbikes in general don’t act like cars and trucks at very low speeds, either stopping or just starting out. Cars will never act the same as ‘we’ motorbike riders only have two wheels. Every riding knows what happens when your speed drops so low that it is hard or impossible to balance the bike. Also how is feels to start out in very slow speeds in stopped traffic or in a parking lot etc.
My assertion is that a DCT motorbike would be far more acceptable and ‘user friendly’ if Honda were to add a shift lever. If the bike is in automatic mode and the shift lever is pulled the bike slips into neutral but stays in automatic mode. Once the shifter lever is released the bike continues as before. The rider should be able to slip the clutch and thereby ease the difficulty of slow starts and stops. On a standard manual transmission bike I find that the ability to slip the clutch a bit comes in very handy from time to time.
Now if the rider squeezes the shift lever and also moves the left-foot shifter up or down then the bike changes into strict manual mode. In my view such a bike could be ridden very similarly to a bike with a conventional transmission. The only difference is that the rider is shifting ‘by’-wire’ or ‘by-computer’ so to speak as opposed to shifting by pulling a physical cable. In my view the shift lever should be made to respond to touch in much the same way as a ‘real’ shift lever.
I am attempting to have my cake and eat it too.
Thank you. This answers the exact question I had ever since I first heard about DCT, but could not find the answer to until I read your post.
you know why you have a handbrake on the DCT bikes ?
and how works a DCT self, you find any very fine animations on youtube....
(10-09-2017, 02:25 PM)Cormanus_imp Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting post, activedirt. There's food for thought in it.
I wonder how the 'neutral button' is set up to work? If you could press it when the bike was moving at say, 50 mph, what would happen if you tried to re-engage the gears? If it defaulted to first it could be interesting. From your description, I wonder if it's the case that, if the bike's in neutral, the transmission will always start in first which means that you wouldn't want a rider going near neutral other than at low speeds and I wonder how much extra technology that would involve.
Yes that is THE, or at least a major, question. In other words given the present day design of the Honda DCT then how much has to fundamentally change to allow for a clutch lever. Although I would not be completely surprised that this concept becomes the standard in a few years. There is just no escaping the low speed with auto transmission issue. Plus a clutch lever is also handy in many other ways as well.
In my view the bike is somewhat safer in auto mode (with the exception of low speed manuvering). In auto mode I can pay more attention to the road ahead.
a clutchlever has absolute no place at DCT...!
bcos the clutchlever is the engine in a certain sense.....or bcos this you need a handbrake on DCT bikes
and after that you understand why it starts still in neutral
and yes
i love sooo much to use the enginebrake at my VULTUS
I could easily ride an automatic motorcycle, but then again I use my clutch lever a lot and just not for shifting. I use it for" hesitating", in tight turns, and U turns, just a power disconnect if you will between the motor and the wheel. Hard to explain, but I do it a lot.
I have ridden 2 DCT's now and I'm not ready for that yet, although I never tried tight or slow speed u turns and stuff. I loved my CVT Majesty scooters. I'll have to ride the latest DCT and see if they feel any better to me.
you must only learn drive with DCT or its a rethink with the (new) driving technology
hmmm in this case are your u-turns always very tight, slow speed.......
DCT : are you realy to fast with completely closed throttle you use littel the rearbrake....
DCT bikes are no automatic bikes (like a scooter) ...bcos DCT has a transmission AND even 2 clutchs......tell this never to a honda-constructor that DCT bikes are automatic bikes....
.
.
.
.at DCT
the engine builds an oil pressure with which the active clutch is com-pressed............for example : you must wait by a redlight are the rpm to slow (pressure to low) for real close the clutch.......and so you need the handbrake if is the engine stopped
at DCT you have to develop a great feeling in the right hand............and yes : if is the oil still cold it is more difficult
or you open the throttle littel and brake rear some..
In late August, I spent three days at a dual-sport rally in Hood River, OR. I rode my F800GS. It has a Rekluse clutch.
There were over 100 riders in attendance and fifteen, or so, GPS-tracked dual-sport rides to choose from. When we go to these events, there are four or five of us that ride together. We hardly ever allow unknown riders to join. The group becomes too large, variables increase, and the idea of strangers "showing off" in our midst is less than appealing. We also have the right combination of medics, mechanics, tools, first-aid and communications. Everyone in the group, except me, is an excellent rider. A 911 dispatcher(old desert racer), a gentleman that owns two Honda stores and a very large, but secret, trophy room, an MSF instructor instructor (he teaches instructors and also teaches U.S. Army spcial forces). And the others are equally talented. I have to beg each time to be included.
Each one of them now rides an Africa Twin DCT. Not a "mannie" in the group. Each one came off a BMW GS. You can't wipe the smiles off their faces! Finger-shifting in "sport" mode is wonderful. Your feet stay on the pegs, you're not fumbling with your left foot to locate the shifter, and the engine compression is right there. Same thing exiting corners. And not a single complaint about slow-speed maneuvering. None. It's a very steep learning curve to acclimate to the throttle. As someone else mentioned, rear-braking simultaneously is beneficial sometimes. Rear braking is a lost art, if ever acquired, by quite a few riders, IMHO.
So why don't "I" have an AT-DCT? I asked the sales mgr to give me a quote. Knocking $1,000 off the MSRP, I would get $3,800 for my mint 2013 CB1100, $4,000 for my 2005 ST-ABS with only 30,000 miles and nary a scratch, I'd have to give them all the $4,750 I just got for selling my Volvo XC70, and come up with another $2,000 cash.
Uh...that ain't gonna happen!!! Two motorcycles, a Volvo, and $2,000 cash for a bike that doesn't have any of the necessary farkles (starting with tires) to be ridden off-road!?
I'm not depressed knowing I'll be on the BMW for a long time. Familiarity breeds familiarity. Which is a wonderful thing off-road. But I really like the DCT!! My favorite dual-sport bike ever.