(10-13-2014, 10:15 PM)Dakota_imp Wrote: [ -> ] (10-13-2014, 03:55 AM)AzBob_imp Wrote: [ -> ]The manufacturer needs to prove that your modification (or neglect of required, documented maintenance) was the direct cause for the failure and not a defect in design or manufacture to deny a warranty claim in the U.S.
A manufacturer or dealer is not going hire outside consultants to do an in depth study to determine the cause and provide you with a written report. The real issue is that if you disagree with the outcome, it is upon you to take the dealer to court with your own $proof$ to force a claim to be covered. MANY of the automakers deny warranty claims with no "proof."
Nobody said anything about outside consultants or written reports. They built and designed the thing. It would take them all of about 20 minutes to get a good idea if an owner's modification contributed to a warranty claim or not. It behooves the manufacturer to ameliorate any valid warranty claim.
Bringing the manufacturer to court on a civil matter like this costs the plaintiff zero dollars if they win the case. Honda and other manufacturers know this, and besides the cost of the repair, they would owe the court costs of the plaintiff.
That being said, I have never had a warranty repair denied by any manufacturer in 20+ years of vehicle ownership, and I've had warranty repairs > $10,000.
Even if they had an idea or even knew they were responsible for a problem, they aren't always going to admit it. Manufacturers will stonewall you and tell YOU to prove your case. I've had warranty repairs denied. - Not by Honda but by Chrysler and Volvo- It's not easy to fight the manufacturers and they count on you getting discouraged and hope you give up.
(10-14-2014, 01:42 AM)AzBob_imp Wrote: [ -> ] (10-13-2014, 10:15 PM)Dakota_imp Wrote: [ -> ] (10-13-2014, 03:55 AM)AzBob_imp Wrote: [ -> ]The manufacturer needs to prove that your modification (or neglect of required, documented maintenance) was the direct cause for the failure and not a defect in design or manufacture to deny a warranty claim in the U.S.
A manufacturer or dealer is not going hire outside consultants to do an in depth study to determine the cause and provide you with a written report. The real issue is that if you disagree with the outcome, it is upon you to take the dealer to court with your own $proof$ to force a claim to be covered. MANY of the automakers deny warranty claims with no "proof."
Nobody said anything about outside consultants or written reports. They built and designed the thing. It would take them all of about 20 minutes to get a good idea if an owner's modification contributed to a warranty claim or not. It behooves the manufacturer to ameliorate any valid warranty claim.
Bringing the manufacturer to court on a civil matter like this costs the plaintiff zero dollars if they win the case. Honda and other manufacturers know this, and besides the cost of the repair, they would owe the court costs of the plaintiff.
That being said, I have never had a warranty repair denied by any manufacturer in 20+ years of vehicle ownership, and I've had warranty repairs > $10,000.
Nobody said anything about outside consultants or written reports. They built and designed the thing. It would take them all of about 20 minutes to get a good idea if an owner's modification contributed to a warranty claim or not. It behooves the manufacturer to ameliorate any valid warranty claim.
Bringing the manufacturer to court on a civil matter like this costs the plaintiff zero dollars if they win the case. Honda and other manufacturers know this, and besides the cost of the repair, they would owe the court costs of the plaintiff.
That being said, I have never had a warranty repair denied by any manufacturer in 20+ years of vehicle ownership, and I've had warranty repairs > $10,000.
Agreed. They will use the best judgement of the mechanic. How much will it cost to prove that the factory trained mechanic is wrong? Do you really think that you can hire a better lawyer than a major OEM?
(10-14-2014, 02:27 AM)ClassicVW_imp Wrote: [ -> ]Even if they had an idea or even knew they were responsible for a problem, they aren't always going to admit it. Manufacturers will stonewall you and tell YOU to prove your case. I've had warranty repairs denied. - Not by Honda but by Chrysler and Volvo- It's not easy to fight the manufacturers and they count on you getting discouraged and hope you give up.
Not saying it doesn't happen, and without first-hand knowledge of the case, can't really comment. Just saying that for the most part, the manufacturers honor their warranty. Sometimes the dealer can be the stumbling block because they think they know more than the home office and say that a repair won't be covered under warranty because they'll have to go through a little bit of work to prove to the home office that it is indeed warranted or they know the reimbursement rate on the repair from the manufacturer is low and they don't make a whole lot of money on it. Usually, unless it's really sketchy (i.e. the owner put a supercharger on the engine and is now claiming a warranty repair for blown rings), a simple letter from a lawyer will turn up the heat enough to grease the wheels (two metaphors in one sentence! Two points!).
My wife is a service administrator and, as part of her job, submits warranty claims. If a customer modifies an engine outside of factory specs (an example is a chip to enable higher rpm operation for more horsepower), the warranty will be voided. The do not have to prove that the modifications caused the or any failure, the modifications are solely sufficient. Further, if a customer brings in a vehicle for service not related to the modifications and modifications are found, the modifications are removed and the warranty is voided. It is that simple and mirrors what I read on the internet in automotive forums.
^ ^ There's the answer, Bob. ^ ^
(10-16-2014, 11:57 AM)Dakota_imp Wrote: [ -> ]My wife is a service administrator and, as part of her job, submits warranty claims. If a customer modifies an engine outside of factory specs (an example is a chip to enable higher rpm operation for more horsepower), the warranty will be voided. The do not have to prove that the modifications caused the or any failure, the modifications are solely sufficient. Further, if a customer brings in a vehicle for service not related to the modifications and modifications are found, the modifications are removed and the warranty is voided. It is that simple and mirrors what I read on the internet in automotive forums.
If that's what she was taught, she was taught wrong and what they're doing is actually against the law. Reference Title 15 United States Code Section 2302 sub-section c. Granted, it's a little hard to read, but this section has been cited in case-law to prohibit the voiding of warranties for external modifications of any type that don't contribute directly to the failure. And even in the case of voiding, the void applies only to the specific part damaged, not the entire vehicle.
I'm not sure who your wife works for, but I think it's a good example of what kind of bad dealerships can be encountered. I've never encountered anything of the nature you've described. I used to belong to a car club of people who regularly modified their vehicles for performance, and none of these people ever encountered any problems having their warranty claims fulfilled for anything their mods didn't cause to break. What you're basically describing is that someone can modify their engine, and then if the air conditioner breaks, the entire warranty is void, which is nothing I've ever encountered, but is also disallowed via both law and case law.
(10-17-2014, 05:41 AM)AzBob_imp Wrote: [ -> ] (10-16-2014, 11:57 AM)Dakota_imp Wrote: [ -> ]My wife is a service administrator and, as part of her job, submits warranty claims. If a customer modifies an engine outside of factory specs (an example is a chip to enable higher rpm operation for more horsepower), the warranty will be voided. The do not have to prove that the modifications caused the or any failure, the modifications are solely sufficient. Further, if a customer brings in a vehicle for service not related to the modifications and modifications are found, the modifications are removed and the warranty is voided. It is that simple and mirrors what I read on the internet in automotive forums.
If that's what she was taught, she was taught wrong and what they're doing is actually against the law. Reference Title 15 United States Code Section 2302 sub-section c. Granted, it's a little hard to read, but this section has been cited in case-law to prohibit the voiding of warranties for external modifications of any type that don't contribute directly to the failure. And even in the case of voiding, the void applies only to the specific part damaged, not the entire vehicle.
I'm not sure who your wife works for, but I think it's a good example of what kind of bad dealerships can be encountered. I've never encountered anything of the nature you've described. I used to belong to a car club of people who regularly modified their vehicles for performance, and none of these people ever encountered any problems having their warranty claims fulfilled for anything their mods didn't cause to break. What you're basically describing is that someone can modify their engine, and then if the air conditioner breaks, the entire warranty is void, which is nothing I've ever encountered, but is also disallowed via both law and case law.
If that's what she was taught, she was taught wrong and what they're doing is actually against the law. Reference Title 15 United States Code Section 2302 sub-section c. Granted, it's a little hard to read, but this section has been cited in case-law to prohibit the voiding of warranties for external modifications of any type that don't contribute directly to the failure. And even in the case of voiding, the void applies only to the specific part damaged, not the entire vehicle.
I'm not sure who your wife works for, but I think it's a good example of what kind of bad dealerships can be encountered. I've never encountered anything of the nature you've described. I used to belong to a car club of people who regularly modified their vehicles for performance, and none of these people ever encountered any problems having their warranty claims fulfilled for anything their mods didn't cause to break. What you're basically describing is that someone can modify their engine, and then if the air conditioner breaks, the entire warranty is void, which is nothing I've ever encountered, but is also disallowed via both law and case law.
Sorry but you are incredibly self centered to believe that any OEM should cover warranty costs for any consumer who modifies a product beyond the design intent. It is not their job to prove YOUR mortification were not at fault. Don't like the stock configuration and want to modify it; fine, be a man and you assume the risk.
You also misread what I wrote. It stated that if a consumer brings in a vehicle for air conditioning repair and the dealer notices engine modifications, the engine warranty can be voided.
Stop being all about "ME" and put yourself in the shoes of the OEM who has to pay increased warranty costs for you to play.
Ok looks like this one is going in the dumper. lets find something else to talk about civilly please.